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ShareHP Users Ring My Phone Off The Hook
Posted by Tom Trainer on June 18, 2009
End users at HP's Tech Forum, underway this week in Las Vegas, have contacted me regarding my last blog post, Inflated Vendor Claims, to share some of their concerns regarding Brocade's HBAs as they relate to HP environments.
These HP end users pointed out to me that Brocade HBAs don't support HP ProLiant G6, DL120 G5, DL 320 G5p and DL785 G5 servers. In fact, there is no support for any HP servers prior to G5. In terms of storage, the Brocade HBAs don't even support HP EVA6400, EVA 8400 or any of the Hitachi-sourced XP high-end disk arrays. And with no support for HP's BladeSystem Matrix, tape offerings, or Integrity or HP9000 servers, I am astounded that Brocade refers to these HBAs as "Enterprise-Class."
I was surprised to learn from these HP users that the HBAs don't support VMware, MS HyperV, or Citrix. In the age of the Virtual Data Center, how can you sell an HBA that doesn't support these environments? And oddly, Brocade doesn't support HP's operating system, HP-UX. Is this an "Enterprise-Class" HBA? In my opinion, this seems like some type of bizarre experiment by Brocade where they are seeking to gain market share by not only giving their product away, but by potentially putting customers' data centers in jeopardy in the process.
I understand that others feel Brocade has a lot of sales "feet-on-the-street" to sell directly into enterprise data centers, and that Emulex and QLogic sell mainly through resellers -- and some feel that this difference could enable Brocade to gain market share through sheer brute force selling. Okay, I get that, but gaining market share at what cost? Brocade does Fibre Channel switching exceptionally well, there is no doubt -- they have a long history in this area and are even considered pioneers. HBAs? Why now?
To those anonymous folks who like to comment about blogs, bloggers, shills, advertising, and analysts, I say we are not on anyone's payroll but the firms we work for, our own. Step away from your anonymous shield and converse in the open where we are -- it's sunny here and the weather is warm ... come on out. Don't worry; we will not insult you as you have us. If you have some real data to share ... share it.
Comment by Joe Streig on June 19, 2009 2:50 AM
Mr. Trainer, Do you honestly want us to believe that your phone rang off the hook with this earth shattering information? Do you really think end users care enough about the HBA that they went to the HP support matrix, documented the compatibility differences and then called you to inform you of this detail? And better yet, there were so many users that did this that you felt it was your duty to share this extremely important finding? This type of detail only comes from a few places and sounds a lot like it came from the same people that feed you the content for you previous spam blog.
This was a sad attempt of trying to redeem your self after publishing bogus data about the Brocade HBA. I can???t understand why you or anyone else would care about this at this level. But what you have done is shown everyone that you publish bogus or irrelevant content and have a self esteem issue that prompted you to attempt to repair your image after you were proven wrong. We all saw Frank Berry blow you out of the water last week with some real data. I am sure Brocade paid Medusa, Tolly and OpenBench for their work, as does everyone in this industry, but none of those 3rd party shops publish inaccurate raw data or they would be out of business. They all spin it, but it does not take a genius to see through that and look at the real data.
- You have validated Brocade as a HBA player
- You just informed everyone that Brocade completed a HP HBA qualification
- You prompted pro Brocade piece that got Brocade a ton of end user eyes on their new HBA
- You attempted to shoot down Emulex as a FCoE player by interpreting PR as you saw fit and did so incorrectly
- We know you are unable to have an original thought or check facts
Have you ever heard of a product roadmap? Do you want us to believe that HP would invest thousands of dollars on a new HBA qualification and not have plans to add to the initial qualification? My guess is they are not done.
I build and sell SAN solutions and your attention to the Brocade HBA caused me to check it out. If I can reduce my number of vendors and get basic HBA functionality with the Brocade HBA I will be moving my new customers from QLogic to Brocade as it will just make my life easier. I will test them as I don???t take anything a vendor says at face value and if they do what they appear they do, a swap is a no brainer. I really don???t care about the one up claims because I don???t need any of those features today. Sure, I may wait till the matrix fills out, but I know it will over time and I think Brocade understands the SAN space.
The other thing is if I sell Brocade fabric and Brocade HBA I will be able to squeeze Brocade on pricing and ultimately be more competitive with lower prices to my users.
Finally, I would like to request that you stop spamming B&S, you are just embarrassing yourself.
Joe Streig
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Comment by Tom on June 19, 2009 4:17 AM
Hi Joe, thanks for the comment. Yes, the phone did ring - many times. Yes, there are concerned storage and SAN architects. Based on your passionate comment, the blog may have been relevant to you. Expressing an opinion can sometimes lead to embarassment - but I'm glad you are doing what you feel is the right thing for your customers and your business.
One more thought (actually a couple of questions):
As a SAN builder and seller, are you planning for a transition from fibre channel to FCoE? Or, are you already building muti-protocol SANs today?
FCoE (and CNA's) is slowly starting take hold and some say the linear part of the ramp-up curve will occur in mid-2010 and 2011 - Do you feel the ramp may actually start to accelerate before the end of 2009?
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Comment by Joe Streig on June 19, 2009 4:46 AM
No current plans. FCoE is an really interesting science project right now. Based on what I understand this is a 2010 test and qualification effort with 2011 deployments. I do though like the promise of what it is trying to do.
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Comment by Let there be spin on June 19, 2009 12:12 PM
Joe Steig,
You go man!! Tom seems to be reprinting vendor marketing data at a frantic rate.
As for FCOE I also agree, lost of Promise, the smoke and mirrors kind.............
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Comment by SAN Pro on June 19, 2009 12:42 PM
Tom, you ned to do a little better research before you make such blanket comments.
Straight from the Brocade HBA data sheets:
Driver- and HCM-supported operating systems: Windows Server 2008, Windows Server 2003, RHEL 4/5, SLES 9/10/11, Solaris 10 (x86 and SPARC), and VMware ESX 3.5
Yes, IBM AIX and and HP-UX are not there yet, but you mislead the readers. While AIX and HP-UX are called "Open Systems," that is a bit misleading. If they are open, why do they only run a specific processors and hardware? You cannot develop direvers without the support of the corresponding company, and today, the even tougher problem is getting lab time internally for certification.
I have no problem with voicing your opinion, but at least make sure the facts you use are correct and publically available.
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Comment by 8Gb Guru on June 19, 2009 4:23 PM
hilarity that a piece by frank berry could help to 'validate' a technology or blow anybody out of the water.
i think much of the original point of tom's first article was that the data on brocades data sheets is questionable at best. That data sheet also says you can get 500,000 iops out of the board. give me a break.
i go back to my original point: download the brocade hba's user guide. you'll see even by their own admission that they have 50+ critical errors. Emulex and QLogic each have 2.
they're getting desperate. how long will this foray into hba's last? they've been 'in' for almost 2 years - they still have less than 3% of the market. buy a brocade hba, you'll likely be replacing it in a few years, even if it works out of the box, which is questionable
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Comment by Tom on June 19, 2009 4:58 PM
Joe, thanks for your feedback!
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Comment by 8Gb Guru?? hmm or a QLogic employee on June 19, 2009 5:07 PM
Did you even read the Medusa report Frank pointed to? So do you invalidate all the work they have done for QLogic and Emulex as well? Did you even read the readme or just learn to count line items because that is not what the document says. You are also wrong on your dates as they just launched last week with HP and a few months prior with the other OEMs. How many users actually deploy a solution that is not qualified by an OEM?
Do you really think the other guys have only 2 issues or maybe that is what they choose to tell you.
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Comment by sanman on June 19, 2009 6:04 PM
qlogic and elx cards have been in use for the last 10+ years, and are both based on a software stack that has been used for 1Gb, 2Gb, 4Gb, and 8Gb. Brocade's 4Gb solution was rebranded LSI; 8Gb stack is new.
qlgc ships over a million ports a year, elx approaches that number. of course they have less failures or you would hear about them and they would absolutely be printed in release notes
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Comment by LSIGuy on June 19, 2009 6:10 PM
Brocade's 4Gb solution was rebranded LSI.... - not true, go look at the web site the current 4Gb and 8Gb solution are 100% Brocade. LSI provided BRCD with a board in the early days, but that has not shipped in 2 years.
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Comment by Calvin Zito, HP on June 19, 2009 10:57 PM
Hi Tom,
I'm just back from HP Technology Forum where I spent time in the Brocade booth, HP booth and wore shirts that clearly identified that I work for StorageWorks. I was also in EVA and XP sessions. Not one customer raised the concerns that had your phone ringing off the hook. So in the spirit of being on the level (as you asked, I'm not posting anything anonymously), how many customers called you? HP has not misled any customers about support for the Brocade HBA so I'm not really clear why your phone would ring off the hook from HP customers.
Rarely do new products support all platforms and OS's when first introduced. You've been around long enough to know that so I'm a bit surprised that you're resorting to sensationalizing what essentially has been the norm for a long time.
HP is very aware of our timeframe for supporting the Brocade HBA across HP storage and servers and are always more than happy to talk through that with our customers. If any of the callers that had your phone ringing off the hook would like to talk to HP, they can contact me by going to our StorageWorks blog at www.hp.com/storage/blog and click on the "Contact" link on the right side. I'd be more than happy to help them with their questions.
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Comment by Tom on June 20, 2009 9:13 PM
Hi Calvin, thanks for your comment. My metaphor certainly inspired passionate reply. I grew concerned after more than five calls; however I will get back all of them and let them know of your generous offer. Certainly HP produces quaility products, and I'm sure HP will continue to do so.
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Comment by LUN Monkey on June 22, 2009 8:21 AM
Wow! Who'd have thought HBAs were that interesting to have generated all these comments? Tom, judging by the number of comments to your last 2 blogs regarding HBAs, you ARE the "HBA Boy"! None of your other blogs got past 1 comment. In your new self appointed role as HBA Boy, and in the true spirit of journalism, I think it is up to you to interview someone at Brocade and get us avid B&S readers the facts from the horse's mouth regarding all these claims and counter-claims regarding their HBAs.
I'd like to know why they call themselves an "Enterprise-Class HBA", why they are not supporting "HP ProLiant G6, DL120 G5, DL 320 G5p and DL785 G5 servers", not supporting "any of the Hitachi-sourced XP high-end disk arrays" (which is strange because I did some digging myself and Hitachi ARE supporting their XPs with the Brocade HBAs), why no virtualisation support (again strange when everyone else who is OEMing their HBAs is supporting VMware, Hyper-V, etc). How can Brocade claim to support 500,000 IOPS when Emulex and Qlogic can only support 230,000 IOPS - are they doing something differently internally - that would be interesting to know and news-worthy.
Tom, in short, it is your DUTY to find out these answers and report back to us, your avid readers, on your unbiased findings and prove to all your distractors your impartiality as a journalist/blogger.
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Comment by Gale on June 23, 2009 4:10 AM
So let me get this straight, Tom Trainer comes out and tells readers of issues with vendor products and that's somehow bad. Frank Berry comes out and says how great every vendor is doing and that's somehow good. Enlighten me.
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Comment by Frank Berry is a hack on June 23, 2009 4:33 AM
JoeStreig, Frank Berry is a hack who couldn't blow a 4th grader out of the water with his cookie cutter blogs. You should stop pushing his agenda and get back to the Brocade office.
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